Etiquette



DP Etiquette

First rule: Don't be a jackass. Most people are good.

Other rules: Do not attack or insult people you disagree with. Engage with facts, logic and beliefs. Out of respect for others, please provide some sources for the facts and truths you rely on if you are asked for that. If emotion is getting out of hand, get it back in hand. To limit dehumanizing people, don't call people or whole groups of people disrespectful names, e.g., stupid, dumb or liar. Insulting people is counterproductive to rational discussion. Insult makes people angry and defensive. All points of view are welcome, right, center, left and elsewhere. Just disagree, but don't be belligerent or reject inconvenient facts, truths or defensible reasoning.

Friday, February 7, 2025

A major retraction: Snyder v US did not legalize "gratuities" bribery in the federal government

I made a big mistake. I have been falsely saying that the June 2024 USSC decision in Snyder v US legalized bribery in the federal government by calling after-the-fact payoffs "gratuities." It turns out that the decision applies only to bribery of state and local governments. Once I realized that there are two different federal laws, one for states and one for the US government, I looked a lot deeper.

My mistake was relying on mainstream media reporting and not digging deeper. I slapped Perplexity and by question 4 I finally got confirmation of my suspicion for the basis for my mistake. In response to my Q2, Perplexity falsely or misleadingly asserted this: Clarity on Applicability: Most media outlets have explicitly noted that the decision limits the federal prosecution of state and local officials for accepting gratuities, leaving such regulation primarily to the states 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17. ....

Here's how I ferreted out my error:

Q3: Based on citations 1-17 relied on, I conclude that most of the mainstream media reporting on the Snyder decision did not make clear that the decision applied only to states, not the federal government. Just because there are 17 obscure citations of exceptions, that does not come close to widespread mainstream media reporting.

A3: Based on the provided search results, it appears that most media reports on the Supreme Court's decision in Snyder v. United States have not explicitly clarified that the decision applies only to state and local officials, not to the federal government. .... In summary, while some media outlets have touched on the decision's implications for state and local officials, the majority of reports have not made it clear that the decision does not apply to the federal government. This lack of explicit clarification might lead to confusion about the decision's scope.

Q4: You assert that the lack of explicit clarification might lead to confusion about the decision's scope. That is nonsense. It absolutely caused a hell of a lot of confusion and false beliefs. You don't understand politics or humans.

A4: You are correct in pointing out that the lack of explicit clarification in media reports about the Snyder v. United States decision has indeed led to significant confusion and false beliefs. .... In summary, the lack of explicit clarification in media reports has indeed caused considerable confusion and false beliefs about the Snyder v. United States decision ....


Here's the basis for my mistake. I looked at the two laws and found a subtle difference. The federal bribery law that applies to the state and localities is 18 U.S.C. § 666. It is silent about after the fact payoffs the USSC called gratuities in Snyder. On the other hand, 18 U.S.C. § 201 applies to the federal government. Here is the critical difference between the two laws. 

§ 201 covers bribes or payoffs given "for or because of" a specific official act. Specifically, § 201(c) addresses after the fact payoffs without using the term gratuity. Instead, it prohibits the giving or receiving of anything of value "for or because of" an official act performed or to be performed by a public official. The difference is the three words "or because of."

§ 666 only covers bribes given "for" a specific official act. 

See the difference? The phrase in § 201 "because of" includes after the fact payoffs, i.e., after the fact gratuities. Thus the Republicans on the USSC held that § 666 does not cover after the fact payoffs. The USSC legalized and softened payoffs by calling them "gratuities."

I was wrong and retract.

Thursday, February 6, 2025

Regarding DJT's $10 billion lawsuit against CBS

A $10 billion loss be a significant blow to CBS. The AP reports:
CBS’ “60 Minutes” posted online Wednesday the unedited transcripts of its October interview with Kamala Harris that sparked a lawsuit by Donald Trump, saying that they proved its broadcast was not “doctored or deceitful.”

That’s what Trump contended in a $10 billion lawsuit he filed against the network in November, reportedly the subject of ongoing settlement talks.

In his lawsuit, filed before Trump won election to his second term, the Republican contended the editing was done to give advantage to Harris, his Democratic opponent.
Yet CBS said that the material it was releasing on Wednesday show “consistent with ”60 Minutes’” repeated assurances to the public, that the “60 Minutes” broadcast was not doctored or deceitful,” CBS said in a statement.

I asked Perplexity to analyze the situation:
Q: Locate and analyze the unedited CBS transcript of the Kamala Harris interview that Trump is suing CBS over, as described in this article https://apnews.com/article/trump-60-minutes-harris-lawsuit-514b0ccbc4a4f120e4db810c6a00e259 . Did CBS alter the aired interview to favor Harris?

A: Conclusion:
Based on the analysis of the unedited transcript and the statements from CBS News: CBS did not alter the aired interview to favor Harris in a misleading manner. The network edited the interview for time constraints, which is a common practice in broadcast journalism. The aired segments, while different, were both from the same response to the same question, and they did not change the substance of Harris's answers 1 2 4.

The controversy seems to stem from the choice of which parts of Harris's response were aired, rather than any manipulation of the content itself. Critics, including Trump, argued that the editing was done to shield Harris from criticism, but CBS has consistently denied these allegations, asserting that the editing was done in line with journalistic standards 1 2 4.

The release of the unedited transcript and video by both CBS and the FCC has provided transparency, allowing the public to assess the interview's content and the network's editing practices.
DJT's vicious attacks on the MSM are grounded in hate and revenge, not on any solid legal basis. Nonetheless, CBS probably stands to win far more by losing in a settlement and paying DJT, than in winning in court and facing the relentless, lawless wrath of DJT, MAGA and the US Department of Justice. 

I think that for the MSM, this is the new normal. We're royally screwed.




MAGA update: Things are getting very ugly & angry, very fast

A torrent of info is coming out about tempers flaring and death threats. I do not know how much truth is in it, but I get a really bad feeling from what I have seen so far this morning. r/WhitePeopleTwitter has been shut down for death threats. Even Perplexity is perplexed:
Q: Was there a call on r/WhitePeopleTwitter for the public execution of DOGE software developers?

A: There is no evidence from the provided search results that there was a call on r/WhitePeopleTwitter for the public execution of DOGE software developers. The search results do not mention any such call or related discussions.

Q2: How has the community on r/WhitePeopleTwitter responded to the DOGE software developers controversy?

A2: The community on r/WhitePeopleTwitter has responded to the DOGE software developers controversy with significant backlash and calls for violence against the developers. Here are the key points of their response:

Violent Threats: Users on r/WhitePeopleTwitter have posted comments calling for the public execution of the DOGE software developers. Comments included phrases like "Drag their f**kin bodies, cuz," "This Nazi stooge needs to be shot," and "Pink mist them all," referring to the act of obliterating someone with a rocket or an IED 1 5 7.

Doxing: There were discussions where users revealed the identities of Musk's DOGE employees, which led to accusations of doxing 2 4.

Reddit's Response: Following these posts, Reddit temporarily banned r/WhitePeopleTwitter for 72 hours due to the "prevalence of violent content" and for violating platform-wide rules against inciting violence and doxing 2 3 4 5 8 9 11 14 15.

Legal Implications: Elon Musk responded to these threats by stating that those responsible had "broken the law," and interim US Attorney Ed Martin warned that the Department of Justice would hold individuals accountable for such threats 1 5.

Public Reaction: The situation has sparked a broader debate about content moderation, free speech, and the influence of high-profile individuals like Elon Musk on online platforms 8 9.

This response from the r/WhitePeopleTwitter community has led to significant controversy, legal warnings, and platform actions, highlighting the tension between online discourse, privacy, and the safety of individuals involved in public projects.
TNR is reporting that Democrats on the House Oversight Committee attempted to subpoena Elon Musk on Wednesday (today). The Republicans flew into a rage. "Musk has brought in young and inexperienced software engineers from his own companies with questionable security clearances to not only take control of sensitive government systems but even make substantial changes that aren’t easily tracked or alterable. These actions break the law and even violate the Constitution."



Axios: Democrats' phones bombarded with calls to "fight harder"
One peanut's response:
  1. Democrats warn about the absolute chaos and corruption that Republicans will cause

  2. Voters heavily vote for republicans, so many democrats lose their elections

  3. The republicans cause chaos and corruption

  4. Voters call on democrats to do something to stop it

God it’s annoying.


Another peanut comments:

Lawsuits won't change anything. Voting won't change anything. Peaceful protesting won't do anything. Bills won't do anything. Appeasing Trump won't do anything.

You either fight for your rights or surrender them to Trump. This is what people have been begging you to do for decades, instead you relied on voting and got angry and started blaming everyone that didn't vote. Doesn't matter how many might not have had the chance because they got purged from the voter rolls, they don't exist in many people's mind and they simply just didn't vote.

You have to fight and fight hard. Republicans have told you EXACTLY what they're going to do. They control Congress, the courts, the executive branch, and you bet they'll try and control state militias and national guards and cops (mostly already on their side) and every inch of the military.

You cannot play the legal game anymore. There is no law in Trump land, and if the case is important enough Trump will put his finger on the scale and everyone falls in line.



I am starting to think that the likelihood of significant violence is becoming less improbable, i.e., more probable. The situation feels very sour, unstable and degenerating. People are getting really pissed off.

The harsh reality: Lots of Americans like it because they rationalize it erroneously

The WaPo writes (not paywalled) about DJT voters in Pennsylvania:

As Washington reels from Trump’s first actions, his voters like what they see
Most were in favor of his efforts to scale back the federal workforce, to stand by controversial Cabinet nominees and to slash foreign aid

Despite the chaos and confusion some of Trump’s early actions have caused in Washington, there was a collective shrug among his supporters here in northeast Pennsylvania, several of whom argued that no actual damage had been done by the new orders to freeze spending. In interviews with nearly 20 people in the region in recent days, most Trump supporters were in favor of his efforts to scale back the federal workforce, to stand by controversial Cabinet nominees and to slash foreign aid.

“I trust him. Is he going to do everything right in the next four years? Probably not,” [DJT supporter] Tammy Malloy said. “Is he going to do everything I agree with? Probably not — but he’s going to do most of what I agree with, and I’ll take it.” .... “To get rid of the DEI,” a favorite conservative punching bag “There’s two genders. I don’t care if you identify as a monkey, you’re still either a male or female. The last four years shoved it down our throats.”
 
[DJT supporter] Dan DeMellier said he wasn’t fazed by the Trump administration calling for a pause of federal loans and grants, saying he didn’t “pay too much attention to it,” but that “media just blows it all out of proportion.” .... DeMellier dismissed the scrutiny surrounding Hegseth’s past conduct. Hegseth had paid $50,000 to a woman who accused him of sexual assault in 2017, according to information he provided to the Senate, and he acknowledged engaging in extramarital affairs. Former colleagues also had reported that he was a heavy drinker. “Who cares if he had three wives? Who cares if he drinks? Everybody drinks,” DeMellier said.

Chris Chermak, a Lackawanna County commissioner and the county’s lone Republican official, said he couldn’t believe just how much ground the GOP gained across the state this election, including ousting the state’s senior Democratic senator, Bob Casey, and an incumbent congressman in the area. But in hindsight, the high cost of living paired with scarce quality job opportunities in the region, Chermak said, made voters want someone in office who would make “drastic, drastic decisions.”

“I don’t have a problem with what he’s doing, and most of the people I’m talking to, I believe, feel the same way,” Chermak said of Trump’s first days in office. “Just some difficult decisions that had to be made.”  
“I like the fact that they’re trying to cut stuff, that they had, what was it, DOGE, and was it MLB or DOB, or whatever?” Brian Williams said, trailing off, trying to remember the acronym “OMB” for the agency that administers the federal budget. He wasn’t the only local resident who struggled to recall the specifics of the Office of Management and Budget’s order to freeze federal loan and grant programs in an effort to weed out diversity and equity. But in conversations here, that kind of initiative was well received.
The article quotes other DJT supporters, giving reasons for rejecting the Democrats or supporting DJT. In many of those comments, one can clearly see MAGA's dark free speech talking points, nearly all of which are lies or irrational. That is not an assertion that those people are stupid. But it is an assertion that they are deceived. Look at the reasoning, i.e., irrational rationalizations, they cite, (i) uh, Hedgseth is OK because he had 3 wives and everybody drinks, (ii) "just some difficult decisions that had to be made", (iii) "you’re still either a male or female", and (iv) "I like the fact that they’re trying to cut stuff." That is incoherent. For the most part, those people do not know what they are talking about, usually either ignorant of key facts or accepting of false MAGA propaganda. That is what MAGA is counting on.[1]

Once again, the following quote I've cited many times here is spot on in its relevance to how people are thinking about what they think they see:
“. . . . the typical citizen drops down to a lower level of mental performance as soon as he enters the political field. He argues and analyzes in a way which he would readily recognize as infantile within the sphere of his real interests. . . . cherished ideas and judgments we bring to politics are stereotypes and simplifications with little room for adjustment as the facts change. . . . . the real environment is altogether too big, too complex, and too fleeting for direct acquaintance. We are not equipped to deal with so much subtlety, so much variety, so many permutations and combinations. Although we have to act in that environment, we have to reconstruct it on a simpler model before we can manage it.”

Again, I am not saying that DJT supporters are stupid. I am arguing that most are significantly ignorant and nearly all are deceived and their reasoning poisoned by decades of MAGA demagoguery. This mass state of mind did not arise just from DJT. It was decades in the making.


Q: Is there sufficient evidence to reasonably and rationally argue that, assuming those sentiments and that kind of are reasoning common, most DJT supporters have been seriously deceived, are seriously uninformed, and/or are applying flawed reasoning to what is happening?


Footnote:
1. I did some searching:
Q: In the 2024 election, to what extent did voters based their votes for Trump on false beliefs and/or clearly flawed reasoning? Comments from Trump supporters are dominated by a combination of MAGA lies, irrationality and ignorance.

A: The 2024 U.S. presidential election saw a significant influence of misinformation, false beliefs, and flawed reasoning among Trump supporters, shaping their voting decisions in several key ways:

Misinformation and False Beliefs:
Election Fraud Claims: Despite evidence to the contrary, a substantial number of Trump voters believed in widespread election fraud in the 2020 election, with Trump himself continuing to assert these claims into the 2024 election cycle 15 28. This belief was not only a product of misinformation but also contributed to a broader narrative of distrust in the electoral system.

Economic Misconceptions: Many Trump supporters prioritized economic issues, particularly inflation and price increases, attributing these problems solely to Democratic policies. However, this view was flawed as both parties had supported the policies leading to these economic conditions. Moreover, there was a widespread belief among Trump voters that his policies would reduce prices, despite evidence suggesting his proposed tariffs and immigration restrictions would likely increase them 24.

Immigration Myths: False claims about immigrants causing crime, taking jobs, and being a burden on taxpayers were pervasive among Trump supporters. These claims were not only false but were also instrumental in shaping negative perceptions of immigration, influencing voter preferences 25.

Irrationality and ignorance:
Authoritarianism and Social Dominance Orientation: Trump voters scored higher on scales measuring authoritarianism and Social Dominance Orientation, indicating a preference for hierarchy and strong leadership, which might not align with rational decision-making based on policy analysis or factual information 3.

Misology: The term "misology" was used to describe Trump supporters' rejection of rational discourse, often dismissing facts and evidence that contradicted their beliefs. This mindset was characterized by a deep-seated mistrust of media and institutions, further fueled by Trump's own rhetoric 6 33
Cultural and Identity Politics: Trump's appeal was also rooted in cultural and identity politics, where voters felt their values, traditions, and economic future were under threat. This perception was not necessarily based on factual analysis but on a sense of cultural loss and fear of change 3 ["Almost nine out of ten voters who supported Donald Trump for US President believe that America’s values, traditions and future economic prosperity are under threat"].

Impact on Voting Decisions:
Reinforcement of Narratives: Disinformation, while not necessarily changing votes directly, reinforced existing narratives among Trump supporters, creating a sense of solidarity and energy on the conservative right 2 32.

Voter Turnout and Support: The spread of misinformation and the cultivation of a culture of fear and distrust likely played a role in mobilizing Trump's base, contributing to his competitive edge in the election 16 ["Inspiring people with fear and anger and violent imagery is a way to manipulate people without getting them to think about the issue"].

Post-Election Perception: Interestingly, after Trump's victory, there was a noticeable shift in how his supporters viewed election integrity, with fewer believing fraud was a significant issue, suggesting that their beliefs were somewhat contingent on the election outcome 26 [
"Heading into Election Day, nearly 9 in 10 Trump voters said fraud was a serious issue. Afterward, just a bit over one-third said so."].

In summary, while not all Trump voters were driven by misinformation or irrationality, a significant portion of his support base was influenced by these factors. The combination of false beliefs about election integrity, economic policies, and immigration, coupled with a predisposition towards authoritarianism and a rejection of rational discourse, played a crucial role in shaping the voting decisions of many Trump supporters in the 2024 election. This phenomenon highlights the complex interplay between misinformation, cultural identity, and political polarization in modern American politics. (emphasis added)
Q2: What role did misology play in people voting for Trump in the 2024 elections?

A2: Misology, defined as the hatred or distrust of reason, argument, or knowledge, played a nuanced role in influencing voter behavior in the 2024 presidential elections, particularly among those who supported Donald Trump.

3. Economic and Social Factors
Economic Disillusionment: Economic factors, particularly concerns about inflation and the state of the economy, were pivotal in Trump's voter base. Misology here played a role in how voters processed economic information. Trump's narrative of economic revitalization and criticism of the Biden-Harris administration's economic policies appealed to those who felt neglected by the political establishment and were skeptical of economic forecasts or analyses from traditional sources7 33.

Conclusion:
Misology, while not the sole determinant, was a significant undercurrent in the 2024 elections, particularly among Trump voters. It influenced how voters perceived and processed information, leading to a preference for narratives that aligned with their pre-existing beliefs and skepticism towards traditional sources of knowledge and expertise. This distrust facilitated Trump's ability to connect with voters through direct communication, bypassing traditional media, and leveraging economic and social anxieties to consolidate his voter base. The interplay of misology with other factors like economic concerns, identity politics, and demographic shifts underscores its complex role in shaping electoral outcomes.